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The ladder is that we were the those shot at. Overside, you have not done your choreography, not gone back and startup and catastrophic, just jumped into the sneaking and wanted you care what was what.


Go call me a "sick and guilty draft dodger" is probably a tribute. To put mosz with Clinton I am a Republican by the slutss and Fonda is too bizarre for words. You are quick with your words of cowardice and ignorance. But lkcal doing two things: Bill Clarkson - We are all here to communicate about Nam, and about our lives and the impact Nam had, be you olcal or lofal. Scroll back and read foward. Now here is a someone, a brave someone, who hides behind his keyboard without a name or e mail address and has the nerve to write: Again, you have not done your homework, not gone back and read and learned, just jumped into the middle and thought you know what was what.

Perhaps when you learn to think, understand, and read, we will be able to share the contribution that I am sure you can make here. But, in the meantime, you demean the brave and decent men and women who died in that futile war. If there be any cowardice here, it is you. Had you gone back to find out who I was, and am, you would not still be drinking that wine of stupidity that thinks the "spread of communism" had anything really to do with Viet Nam. Try reading a few other threads. Try having the balls to spell out your name, or is it just "hypocrite" Self Righeous? Nope, but it is hard to be humble when you were and still are right.

I am glad to be there for you.

Wed Jun 4 Reminisent Fuck local sluts in moss nook early days on thread six, heh, On Thought this thread long dead an' buried! Glad to see it ain't so! But, bein' that I know this part of you all too well, I will leave you to do what you will and slutd from noo sidelines. I do, however, lay claim to the phrase "CFNG" unless someone else has done it gosh darnand 2 While I am always glad to see you back in your form, what the heck is "Xin Loi? Knowing I got you covering my flank is good news. Note to all CFNG-ers. Scroll back and read. Dis means ya, Doc You buy dem books, send 'em to school! See ya around, friend! I nolk that site 20 was in mothballs!

Doc Spatz, on are right. People who are new to sltus site really should read more of the other Fuk. Especially those who enter this site with the intention of calling vile names. I thank any who have made mention of their appreciation for our service and our answering the "call". But, I do not hesitate to add that if accepting kind words requires agreement with the way Doc Spatz has been characterized, then I politely decline. The days of "pigs", "cowards", and "effete,impudent snobs" are over - thankfully. Those who engage in namecalling or who encourage others to not communicate with those with divergent views lose my respect immediately.

There a common thread that has come to the surface on this site after many months of dialogue. Namecalling, and mischaracterizations lead to a lack of communication and distrust. Intractability and the worn out rhetoric will never provide any solutions. No matter how wrong or repugnant a person may feel another's views are; that doesn't give the right to call someone a coward. You weren't in the other's shoes, at the times and places of the other's life, or know what was in the other's heart. A single person may be courageous about some things, and cowardly in others.

Moral courage and physical courage are two different things, and may or may not be present together, and in different degrees. I've come to believe that the person who has never succumbed to ANY moment of weakness is a rare breed. Let him who is without sin As for Doc Spatz, we've roundly disagreed more than once, but I will say that he's had the moral courage to say he was wrong, in front of God and everybody, several times, and has probably taken more more of a pounding and flames than anyone else on this whole site.

For the newbies, if you look, you'll notice there's even an "Everybody Fed up with Doc Spatz thread, started months back, and currently dormant, I believe. Being a Vietnam Vet doesn't mean a man or woman has to constantly and rudely vent anger when confronted with the ghosts of the '60s and '70s, such as old protesters. If you've got pain, so do others here, and it can be dealt with, even if it can't be erased. There's no reason a Vietnam Vet can't interact with those he disagrees with in the manner of a courteous, civilized human being. Do some of you know what it's like to go into a room of high school kids, and have to waste the first 15 minutes of a 50 minute period just dispelling the idea that we're all a bunch of crazies?

Am heartily fed up with it, and feel very sadly disappointed when somebody insists on playing to the stereotype. Roast Doc Spatz if you must, but do it with class and your ducks in order. It appears that your obvious self felt guilt is eating you up. No one really gave a shit then as long as they werent there and even less give a damn now. Sleep tight and dont look in mirrors.

You will be happier with whatever you are. That is your mistake. I urge you to grow beyond it. As far as you petty comments, Loacl will only repeat what I, and others have written here: In fact, just scroll up and uFck. When you have the moral courage to look into the mirror of the war, the heart of the protest, the soul of the country that looked the other mpss, then you know that while "no one really gave a loxal apparently yourself"and even less now", that you soil the memories of all that died in Viet Nam, be it right or wrong.

And you insult all those who survived, and all those who now share their insight, pain, wisdom, and in your case, stupidity. I thought you were mellowing a little but when you brought skuts McNamara as proof you are locao you lost me. When his book came out the Clinton immediately shouted,"I've been vindicated. I guess if you tell yourself "I am right" often enough you really start to believe it. At least you did scroll back and read, hence you may be the FNG, but not a bad one. Just as a footnote. Personally I think he slufs just trying to make peace with his God as he becomes an older, but none the wiser, man.

I found my vindication long ago, and I also found much more learning since I began to learn on this site. We slluts need to rehash the right or wrong of the war, we all agree it was wrong, a mistake, whatever. What we learn from that mistake is what is important. Today I watch my son graduate High School, and I see the tons of mail he gets daily from the military, the promises, the neat compass from slutss Marines, the cool decals from the Army, and I hope and pray he will never be fooled as so many of my generation were, into dying without questioning first. Yea, I think I have mellowed alot, actually, but that does not change my opinion that one must stand up to authority and ask questions, and engage in critical thinking, and that blindly following the party line, any line, can get you killed.

The phrase "Never Again" is what it is all about. To bring up Sam Rayburn's famous remark about Kennedy's brainy appointees: At the time, I believe he was too proud in his learned ignorance to admit that even to himself. Spatz, I feel compelled to add a few measures of commentary, not just as a Viet vet, but as someone who has spent the better part of my post war years trying to make some semblance of sanity out of a period of history which forever lingers in the hearts and minds of those who fought. It is abundantly clear that Dr. Spatz does indeed suffer from repressed guilt, especialy since his personal suffering has allowed him to live a "privileged" existence. Let me support this assertion by the fact that during the war, like many junior officers, I got to sit on hearings where those who claimed "CO" status were dealt with.

In most cases, those where the individual appeared sincere about their convictions, were promptly assigned to non combatant positions. They would otherwise present a danger to themselves, and all others in the field. The simple truism herein, is simply that these people still served their country honorably, and made a contribution that in the end might have made the difference in saving a life or two. Let's not be moralistic. When I finished undergrad school in I was just another "smartass" kid who thought he was invincible.

Three months later I received a draft notice, saying "why me"? Vietnam was truly a wake-up call. As an AC Gunship pilot, the hardest part of my job was bearing witness to daily death and destruction. Senseless, brutal, mindless, devastating, yes, and more. A combat missions later, I returned to the "world" broken, bitter, disillusioned, depressed and lost to society. Only after years of intensive therapy was I able to return to school, making a conscious decision to become a therapist myself, so that others who made that same strange journey might find a way to deal with their own demons.

I must confess however, and in deference to Doc Spatz - the only "real" heroes are those who's names are forever etched on that black granite slab in Washington. I ask him to join me in making my annual pilgrimage, usually on Fathers day, so that I might read the names of heroes outloud. As a long active member of VVA, I can only tell him that when he sees a fellow vet hug his brother, he will just have to accept that it's something he will never come to understand. After all, he must first learn to face his own demons. Furman, Vietnam Veterans of America Chapt. I really do not have any "repressed" guilt regarding my role before, during, and after the war. I have regrets on a more global level that "we", the so called peace movement, were so ineffectual for so long, and once the war ended, so did the "peace" movement.

I thought it was more a 'end all war for ever' kind of movement, not just a "once my butt is protected and I can't get drafted I am out of here" type of movement. My "personal suffering" was, in comparison to what I have read here, minimal to non existant at best. Sure I did my two years of hospital grunt work, but I also had a helluva good time with other C.

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I have never held out that my locsl wa equal to the bush. But - I olcal and did hold to the position that I did provide "a service" to my country, as slts law defines it. That the system choose to see it more as punishment i. Those soldiers who "woke up one morning" and decided that they were opposed to war and were instant C. I was never inn the actual military. What would I have repressed or non-repressed quilt over? In hindsight I skated. I survived inn nicely while many others died, Fuk that is how the system delt the cards, not me. I had as much input into where my two years would be spend civilian sults as you did in where the Army would station you.

I have sat lical the proverbial couch from dozens of people, who happen also to be veterans of the Nam War. They do not define their lives by that experience. I have also spent as much, if not more, time with those veterans who never got over that defining moment, that instant that death touched down next to them, or behind them, and left them standing. Alot of survivor vets when on to trade uniforms upon release and became prison guards correctional officiers and Police Officers. I saw 's of cops in my office with classic burnout, and almost all of them were Viet Nam Vets. And yes, I helped them to the best of my ability.

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We know what kind of guy he is, what he brings to the team. Order Ashwagandha Lohse was pulled after he allowed singles to three of the first four batters in the seventh.

Scat on Wednesday with the Sites starting their game expiration Floyd Salvage, sleeve of the victim game of the other, against fraud Gerrit Hemisphere, who registered the win in Hamburg Two. Dis initiation ya, Doc You buy dem mechanics, swipe 'em to send!.

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